Proposed Changes for Sunday Rides - Feedback by 16 Nov

[geoff m]

Dear all,

Huge growth in numbers riding with the club since winter ended has created a rethink about how we should stage departures to cater for different capability levels, and ensure size of bunches are not too big, and we all get back around 9.30 to 9.40am to avoid traffic congestion.

It is proposed that from the first Sunday of December the following departures take place:

White Group
Meet 6.15am for 6.20 Departure. Newer members looking to build on technique and endurance. Group will be led by Lindsay on days he is available. Average speed 26 to 27kms per hour. We would like some other experienced riders to help out on days Lindsay may not be available.

Red Group
Meet 6.25am for 6.30 Departure. Experienced and skilled in bunch riding at intermediate speed of average speed 27 to 30kms per hour.

Black Group
Meet 6.30am for 6.40 Departure. Experienced and skilled in bunch riding at faster pace of average speed 29 to 33kms per hour.

We should be able to get everyone back between 9.20 to 9.40am before the road congests and the sun gets really hot.

Depending on numbers in winter, we will review grouping and times to ensure numbers are reasonable, and start time may be pushed back when daylight is at its shortest.

Please leave any feedback on this proposal.

Also, would be great to get the RNP rides going again on the first and third Sundays of the month. Use that thread on the forum to confirm departures. RNP is an extra 13kms going through Royal National Park with about 10kms of hard hill climbing. Red and Black group experienced riders only.

[weiyun]

Getting a bit complex with the times. KISS principle is important and the 6:15/20 start may be a bit much for some I suspect.

I guess the question is, how important is it to have everyone return at a similar time? Coffee time? Is the return time more important or the start time? And what's better for the cohesiveness of the club? To see everyone at the start or to see some at the end (BoBos)? If it weren't for the Sat Slowies and the relatively similar start times on Sun, I won't probably get to know more 1/2 of the fellow club members.

[jimmy]

I'm going to sit on the fence for this one.

I can see the point of having the different speeds for the different groups. But I also agreen with Weiyun that it is starting to get a bit complex.

One concern I do have is regarding the Sutherland Service Station. There may be a temptation for people to wait too long, and then the groups start meeting up there.

The other issue, is that if you can't handle the pace of one group, and you drop off, then there is no one behind to "sweep you up". Or do we require the group to stay together?

With the Black group, what happens if someone shows up who is a very strong rider, they sit on the front, put the hammer down on the hills, and really drive the pace up. The average is listed as between 29km/hr and 33km/hr. At that speed, there is a big difference between them. Waterfall, about 80km, is about 2:45 at 29km/hr, and is 2:25 at 33km/hr.

James

[mikesbytes]

Yes I agree that 29kph is too slow for the black group

White Group 26 to 27kms per hour

Red Group 28 to 30kms per hour.

Black Group 31 to 33.6kms per hour.

Also the White and Red groups should stay together and ensure they are all there at Sutherland before the return ride. Where the black group should be permitted to smash themselves apart as there shouldn't be any riders in the black group who can't look after themselves once dropped.

[weiyun]

Then it comes back down to the following questions,

What's the purpose of a bunch ride?

What's the aim of our Sun ride?

For focused training (apart from bunch riding techniques), solo ride is the way to go. Set your own pace and focus on your training needs. If this is the focus, then one shouldn't be in a bunch.

[Terry]

Sounds like a good plan due to the fact that some of the now slow group could step up to a faster pace. maybe to keep the KISS principles in order the times could be simply listed as 6:20/6:30/6:40 removing any confusion for those who don't get the whole 6:15/20 Start thing.

[geoff m]

Thanks - some good feedback. Some of these issues we've thought through and happy to share this.

Like the idea of 6.20/6.30/6.40 'pedal-off' time.

Average speed is probably closer to what Mike has said above, but let's not make it too scientific - this will largely be governed by the groups (as changing speeds, grading at Heffron evolves over time). At the moment, there is enough demand to look to three separate groups and speeds.

Other larger clubs do stagger their times and groups to cater for similar issues we are facing.

Main purpose of the earlier start for White Group is to ensure that people get back before Sunday congestion and Sunday temparatures rise. For those leaving Sutherland Servo after 8.45am will notice very few other riders on the road (reasonable numbers in riders also helps stray/dropped riders get back safely), and a lot more vehicle traffic.

Currently the faster group leaves at about 6.40am vs main slower group at 6.30 am. Return times are around 9.20 to 9.30 and 9.40 to 9.55am respectively. This should help bring the new White group back by 9.30 to 9.45am. So returning time will still be largely staggered.

Mike is right. Those riding the Black group should be very comfortable being on their own should they be dropped. They will have at least two other clubs coming up their rear to jump on, and make it back to the Red Group or even Black Group at the servo. Also, they can drop back a group if they make it to the point Black catches Red or White (probably between Taren Point Road and Waterfall)

We will encourage each group to continue on from the Servo separately again, after a short rest, rather than have to wait for everyone at Sutherland. There may of course be individuals who wish to interchange if any two groups do happen to cross at the servo.

[christian]

I agree that the start times are a bit complicated, the red and white groups could leave at almost the same time. What happens if someone gets dropped by the red bunch before they get to the white bunch? Or these groups could leave in the other order. If you get dropped by the black bunch then you should be strong enough to chase down one of the other two.

I know that I treat this ride as a training ride, its the only endurance ride I get time to do. I'm sure there is more then one person in the fast bunch that sees it the same way. Is the slow bunch more of a social ride?

In saying all that, I do think three bunches is a good idea since it would be quite difficult to make the jump from the slow to the fast bunch as there is currently such a big speed difference. The fast bunch usually averages around 32km/h depending on who is there.

I don't think that everyone finishing at the same time is all that important, after all there are only so many chairs at the cafe. Although this is a little antisocial, its the reality.

[weiyun]

Next question. Why white, red and black? Should they be shades of purple to pink? In the eye of the slowie bunch, the fastest group would time warp away and leave a red trail. While in the fastest bunch, the slowie group would appear in a shade of purple when approached from behind. No?

[mikesbytes]

Perhaps we should also encourage newbies to program in a couple of other riders mobile numbers so if they do end in difficulty they can communicate that and a mechanically experienced rider can chuck a u'ie and rescue them.

[mikesbytes]

Just thinking, with the black group leaving at 6.40am, does this mean that the RNP ride should leave at 6.10am ?

[weiyun]

How much extra time would the RNP (Waterfall)/Helensberg loop take?

[jimmy]

As far as the RNP goes, I often feel that about 40-45 minutes is the time taken from Top of Waterfall to the Audley exit of visa versa.

I think that it is something like 12km from one entry to the other via the Highway, which is about 20 minutes or so (depending on which way you are going).

I think that the 6am for RNP should remain. When we did it as a group, we would only sometimes meet up with the group at the Servo. Further, the RNP group is only small, and ususally more experienced riders, so if we don't meet any groups, and only meet up at the Cafe, I don't see a big problem with that.

James

[insomniac]

As someone who's not sure whether to jump from slowies to fasties, I think its a great idea, thats if turnout remains strong. I don't see whats complicated about the start times.

One other suggestion / question (as a newish member of the club) - why not have a slowies RNP ride? i'm sure a bit of variation to the waterfall ride would be welcome by at least a few of the slower riders.

[weiyun]

One other suggestion / question (as a newish member of the club) - why not have a slowies RNP ride? i'm sure a bit of variation to the waterfall ride would be welcome by at least a few of the slower riders.

I think the issue there is one of safety and practicality. For a start, there are quite a number of fast descents, some with poor road surfaces, hence can be risky if one's bike handling isn't proficient. Then there are those 10% grade climbs. Until one gets stronger on the Waterfall route, it'll be a slow walk back up. Trust me, that Audley-Waterfall loop (either direction) is significantly tougher than the RNP climb out we had during the Gong ride.

But by all means, if you feel masochistic and feel that you have it, then just join the ride and see how you fare.

[insomniac]

Point taken...just think there are some potential "reds" who might like the variation and a bit of masochism..but not necessarily with the fasties.

[weiyun]

Well, just join in or form you own bunch for the RNP ride. The return trip is around 100km as opposed to 80km from Marrickville. You won't know how easy or hard it is until you've done it once.

If you do want to form a bunch for training, then make sure you register it with our club so that it can be recorded as an official training ride, and gain the insurance coverage for participating CA members.

[T-Bone]

RNP isn't too bad really. If you feel up to it, give it a go, or organise a group of the slowies to do the ride. If you wanted to join in with the usual RNP ride, it would be preferred if your pace wasn't too much slower, as the general aim is probably 30km/h+ average speed (not too much +), so taking into account traffic lights and regrouping points, a return time of no later than 9:30am.

[jimmy]

Just another quick point about times.

If this plan goes ahead then the groups need to get away at their allocated time. It is pointless trying to organise this if the first group gets away at 6:20 sharp, the second group gets away at about 6:35, and then the last group also leaves on time.

James

[weiyun]

If this plan goes ahead then the groups need to get away at their allocated time.

That's a tall order!

[mikesbytes]

As someone who's not sure whether to jump from slowies to fasties, I think its a great idea, thats if turnout remains strong. I don't see whats complicated about the start times.

One other suggestion / question (as a newish member of the club) - why not have a slowies RNP ride? i'm sure a bit of variation to the waterfall ride would be welcome by at least a few of the slower riders.

I actually did this as a one off, I took out a small group of slower riders through RNP with a 5.45am start. Everyone made it back alive.

[weiyun]

I actually did this as a one off, I took out a small group of slower riders through RNP with a 5.45am start. Everyone made it back alive.

It's not a bad idea actually. But the 5:45am start... Ouch!

[jimmy]

5:45am sounds like a reasonable start to me, most of my Saturday and Sunday rides start at about then.

Somehow though, I don't think that the slow group would appreciate me taking them through the park.

James

[weiyun]

Somehow though, I don't think that the slow group would appreciate me taking them through the park.

I don't think anyone would mind, but you'll have to be prepared to wait a lot.

[matt]

I would like the slow group to be red instead of white, that way they can be called "The Red Lanterns".

We will thereby be bringing back the "Lantern Rouge" - the only tour distinction many of us could ever aspire to.

I believe that this is something that fits neatly with both the clubs colours and the inclusive spirit that sets it apart from so many other cycling organisations.

[Trouty]

As the probably the longest serving member in the "slow" group - I am one of many now who find themselves in no mans land - (wanting to push harder than the slow group, but no where near making the transition to the fast group). A 3rd group would be ideal - but does it make it a bit too complex? Should White and Red just leave at the same time, and the group who decides they want to push harder (eg: Red) pick up the pace at a certain point - eg: after Taren Point Hill?

It really depends on who turns up on the day as some days the slow group is quite strong, other times - due to 1 or 2 new riders we don't know - Lindsay has to set quite a slow pace. Sunday is really the only distance ride I get to do so at times I like to ride harder, but a few of us should also help Lindsay now and then with the slower riders. This should be decided before we leave.

I don't mind what time we start in the end, all I know is whether you are a "Slowie" or one of these newer stronger "Intermediates" - you appreciate the security of having the support of riding with a bunch rather than yourself - but you still want to ensure you get a proper workout - aligned with your level of riding. If you are riding with people in a similar level it is easy to stay as a group "ALL FOR ONE AND ONE FOR ALL".

When you finally become good enough to be in the BLack group - you can live by there standard which is usually "GET OUT OF MY WAY I'M TRYING TO BREAK MY AVERAGE SPEED" or "YOU HAVE A FLAT TYRE, BAD LUCK - SEE YOU AT THE CAFE" or "YOU'RE HAVING A HEART ATTACK? SORRY I CAN'T WAIT - THE SLOWIES WILL HELP YOU, SEE YOU AT THE CAFE"

[Stuart]

I know that I treat this ride as a training ride, its the only endurance ride I get time to do. I'm sure there is more then one person in the fast bunch that sees it the same way. Is the slow bunch more of a social ride? ~snip~ I don't think that everyone finishing at the same time is all that important, after all there are only so many chairs at the cafe. Although this is a little antisocial, its the reality.

First up I teat the Sunday slowies as training ride - my only real one of the week & I try to go as hard as I can. I think 3 groups is a good idea if the amount of riders remains high but I can see in Winter it would be back to two. Also, when Lindsay is not riding, who'll take the slower riders?

I also don't think it's a huge issue that we all get back at the same time - Bobo's is crowded anyway.

[weiyun]

I also don't think it's a huge issue that we all get back at the same time - Bobo's is crowded anyway.

Bobo will need to expand to cater for the growing DHBC.

[mikesbytes]

I think Geoff's proposal of having the slow group head off 10 minutes before the medium group makes good sense, as it gives the slow riders an extra 10 minutes before the roads are over populated with cages.

The fast riders are using the Sunday ride as a training ride, after all that's exactly what it is.

GET OUT OF MY WAY I'M TRYING TO BREAK MY AVERAGE SPEED"

We did have a go earlier this year of breaking the record for the average speed, but only matched it.

YOU HAVE A FLAT TYRE, BAD LUCK - SEE YOU AT THE CAFE

Not entirely correct, we do stop for a flat before Sutherland on the way out and after Sutherland on the way back.

If your in the fast group then you should be capable of fixing your own flat and if your not then say so and someone will fix it for you.

THE SLOWIES WILL HELP YOU, SEE YOU AT THE CAFE

Come on, the fast riders are more than capable of fixing their mechanical's.

[weiyun]

Well guys, when will this new schedule be implemented? This coming Sun 23rd? Or will there be too many straggling hung over riders?

[T-Bone]

We did have a go earlier this year of breaking the record for the average speed, but only matched it.

If you really want to break the average speed we can make it happen!

However that may result in 4 bunches for that day.....

[geoff m]

This will be implemented first Sunday of December.

[timyone]

lol about this thread! you lot are so exact on every thing!